#61 Multi-Family Homes Transcript

JENNIFER-LEE

Mike, we're back for season seven of HAVAN's podcast, Measure Twice, Cut Once.

MIKE

Hey, Jennifer Lee, it is great to be back. And this is anexciting season because we're looking at a lot of different things, includingbuilding and renovating high performance homes, as well as talking about energychoices, which are going to become a bigger and bigger part of the conversationand the components that make up the homes that we're building today.

JENNIFER-LEE

Yeah, it's also very interesting to learn about new housing legislation as well, as it definitely impacts homeowners and the potential to unlock home equity.

MIKE

Well, I think we ought to get into it. And this is going to be a really exciting episode. We have Laurel James, who's the director andprincipal designer and co-owner of Novell Design Build. And we're going to talk about new multifamily regulations. And it's going to be a great conversation.Actually, Laurel was one of the first people I met when I joined the association years ago. And she's just been a phenomenal resource, a wealth of knowledge, and a heck of a great person to talk to. So, how's that for a pretty good build up?

LAUREL

Thanks so much, Mike.

JENNIFER-LEE

That's great. And let's mention she heads up the Women'sCouncil.

MIKE

Absolutely. Co-chair of the Women's Council as well. And Isay this every time. What an amazing group of people who are trying to createequity in our industry. And what I hope is they're so successful that by thetime my daughter starts in the industry, we won't need a Women's Councilanymore. So, thank you for doing what you do there as well.

JENNIFER-LEE

Let's hope. And Rachel's already got a tool set. I've seenher play with it.

MIKE

She's going to be running my company in a couple more years.

JENNIFER-LEE

There we go. I was going to say, I don't know Laurel andother people might not know her. So, which is funny because we've been humanmembers for a long time. So, I want to get to know you now. And so do ourlisteners. Tell us a little bit about Laurel, your story.

LAUREL

Oh, thank you guys so much. And thanks for having me. It'ssuch a pleasure to be here. And I am, as you said, principal designer andco-owner at Novelle Design Build. My husband and I started this company wayback when. At first, I actually just was going to start him, help him getstarted off. He's always been a carpenter and a builder himself and comes froma family of contractors. And so, I just took a year off of what I was doing,which was commercial design. I used to work and do airport design and projectmanagement, hospitality and large retail and that kind of stuff. And afterabout six months, I knew I wasn't going back because we were having too muchfun. So that was about 18, 19 years ago now. And we have been designing andbuilding homes here in Lower Mainland ever since and having a great time.

JENNIFER-LEE

And you've passed thetest so you can work with your partner.

LAUREL

Yes. Oh, actually, I have to say that's one of the gems ofit. For whatever magical reason, he knows what I don't know and vice versa. Andwe just tend to, you know, lift each other up and complete the circle in someway. So yeah, we work really well together.

MIKE

That's the sign of a good partnership. And what I like aboutwhat you guys do is now we have a lot more people entering the design buildphase. We're shifting our methodology, but you are one of the original designbuilders in this market. Can you talk a little about what design build is andjust give us a little overview of what your company does.

LAUREL

Oh, thank you for that. Yeah, it's we sort of refer toourselves as truly design build, actually, because we were founded by both adesigner and a builder, as opposed to a construction company that sort of takesin or absorbs a design component to what they do. So, everything that we do,all of our systems, our workflows, all of our process has been built from theprofessional perspective of both a designer and a builder. I've got a projectmanagement background as well. So, it's all of that. And we sort of set out to,you know, set the bar high for ourselves in terms of, you know, a level ofprofessionalism and distinction, which is also why we are HAVAN members andhave been you know, proud to be so for such a long time. But it is thatdistinction is that, you know, we've been honing our systems over the years toreally sort of have that process bounce back and forth between good design,thoughtfulness on that perspective, and then excellent craftsmanship andexecution on the build side.

JENNIFER-LEE

And what are some of the other types of projects andmunicipalities you've worked in? Just a quick little overview. You've done somany, so.

LAUREL

For sure. Yeah, we've done hundreds and hundreds. I mean, wework across Lower Mainland. We are based in Vancouver. Love working inVancouver. Also, the North Shore, Burnaby, and New West. Those are sort of ourmainstays. And but we're right now completing a project out in Port Moody.We're working potentially out to Tsawwassen and Surrey and beyond. So, this issort of our core, but we really try and throw ourselves flung arc. our bigdifferentiator is that design build element. And so, wherever we can bringvalue, where we can come into the process and help a homeowner right from thestart, when there are questions like, should I tear down or should I build new?Should I look at multiple dwellings versus, you know, laneway or what have you,whatever the questions are, we can help navigate that along the way with aholistic approach and bring some efficiency and holistic questions to thetable.

MIKE

One of the things we love, about talking to experiencedprofessionals is this, when you look around every building you see, had to befigured out for the first time. Someone had to figure it out and then someoneelse scaled it and it became something we see all the time. You have a numberof firsts under your umbrella as well. Do you want to talk about some of thefirsts that you were part of as well? Because these are important conversationsbecause these firsts become standard later. So, what we see you doing now, we can expect to be something that we're all going to have in our lives in thefuture. So, let's talk about what you did and maybe some of the things that you're currently doing.

LAUREL

Oh, I love that. Well, thank you. Yeah, and we have to get better at talking about the things we do, because to be honest, we haven’t historically, we haven’t been great at getting these sorts of firsts and stories out there, but we do love to innovate. Like it's not uncommon. I was just sharing the other day with our team, like Ant came home and he didn't have something. So, he just built himself a tool. Like he just built himself a tool to get something done on his own. And I was like, what do you mean you like? So, he's you know, he has an incredibly creative and innovative mind even as a builder. But also, we're really open to challenges and really eager to sort of take take some of these things on for the first time. So, we are really proud to have built the first cistern in Burnaby for a single-family home. Of course, there are cisterns, which is underwater. rainwater capture and storage for use in irrigation. We used it for flushing toilets as well and that kind of thing.It's becoming more and more common for commercial, but from a residential perspective, People don't tend to think about that, but that's definitely something, and I know we're going to get into it with multiplexes, which is a component of it. So, we had to navigate that from an engineering perspective and jurisdictional perspective. And it was a really fun challenge. But also, wemade these homeowners who were from Australia and had a real appreciation for water shortages, provided them with a really sustainable system. We also builtone of the first coach houses in West Vancouver. West Vancouver's been quite slow, notoriously, to sort of pick up on this whole laneway and or carriagehouse or coach house approach. And navigating that was really interesting and much more arduous. And we really are thankful for patient clients that, youknow, we went through the, I think it was a number of years to just work through the zoning and jurisdictional red tape there.

JENNIFER-LEE

A personal first for you is this is your first podcast. Oh,that is so true. It is. That's right. There we go. We're excited to have youhere. And I know that I would like you to explain a little bit more to me aboutBudda Novella Outdoors.

MIKE

This is my favorite one actually.

JENNIFER-LEE

What is it? Because I actually don't know anything about it.And Mike does because you guys are besties.

LAUREL

One of our differentiators is design build. The other one issort of our breadth of service. We're one of the few companies that really areend-to-end. provide that design build service from start to finish. But thestart being like an idea, I just need to get more people around the table. Iwant to, you know, a place for my aging parents or what have you. So right atthe inception of things. And then on the opposite end of things, we really sortof saw a need for an extension of that service out to the outdoors. Andespecially with the pandemic, as you guys know, well, we all had to learn towork from home and think of alternative ways to use our outdoor spaces androoms. And so, we developed a fleet of signature sheds that are available. So,it's sort of like a luxury outdoor space that is just sort of found space overand above it. And then as well, it allows us to offer the landscaping side ofyour build, which is something that often gets sort of left behind or notnecessarily thought through. That's so smart.

JENNIFER-LEE

I'll take one. I was going to say, I was going to say it's so smart because both Mike and I were excited. That's why we're like, oh,that's great. But again, going for the whole concept, because, you know, we've heard about design build a lot, but everyone forgets that like there's stillanother component to which is landscaping and landscaping is always a separate entity. And it's neat now of like, I've never heard of that. It's like, you'rereally design built because you're doing it all. And they all like, as you can hear. throughout the rest of our episodes, they all reflect each other, andthey all go hand in hand. So, it's so important.

LAUREL

Oh, well said. Absolutely. And it's what's the other keypart of that design build is that those, you know, the foundational programmingthat you do at the start of the process carries through. So, when we're talkingabout landscaping and outdoor rooms, we're still remembering what wasimportant, what was that initial intent, you know, way back at the start of the project.

MIKE

I like outdoor rooms because they're outdoor rooms and I'm ahuge proponent of using all the space, extending our space and spending timeoutside. The only challenge is those outdoor rooms are not considered part ofyour conventional living space. So even though the legislation has changedsignificantly, I still can't have my escape room. I mean, outdoor room, notwhere I escape to while I escape my family out there.

JENNIFER-LEE

Oh, that type ofescape room, like where you solve puzzles.

MIKE

It can be a noun and a verb. But that doesn't fall under thelegislation. So, I think we should clarify very quickly, because the provincialregulations have changed, and that's going to have an impact on all of us. Soeven though my outdoor space doesn't fall under that, can you talk a littleabout What are some of the opportunities that are facing us currentlyshort-term and long-term as a result of changes to these legislations and howwe can start to look at ways to unlock the potential hidden value in ourproperty to leverage these opportunities?

LAUREL

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think I've heard it on this verypodcast, you guys saying a sea change is coming and I think That's where we'reat. Things are moving and we have very bold regulatory change coming from theprovincial side of things that the province is basically mandating. that allmunicipalities that are over 5,000 people get serious and start allowingmultiple dwellings on the home. So much so that it's a minimum of three to fourunits. And they're looking at a minimum of four plexes and three stories onlots that are over 3,014 square feet. So, you know, this is This is hugebecause it's more choices, and that's what we need. I mean, that's what we needin Lower Mainland, and to really sort of turn the tide in terms of what can beaffordable, what can be attainable.

MIKE

OK. So, we're basically changing the legislation. Yeah. Ifwe're summarizing it correctly, we're all operating from the same place. Thelegislation is changing to allow us to densify our properties and in certaincases over and above what the municipalities might have previously allowed usto do on the same square footage.

LAUREL

That is correct. That is correct. The way things are goingand it's, it's, as I said, it's very bold. It basically does away with the lotthat is only a single-family home and with minimal choices available to thehomeowner. So

JENNIFER-LEE

And I think it's great because I might go to certain havetalked about it before on multiple podcasts but I grew up in New Westminster, Igrew up in Queens Park, not there were a few of them but like we built we wereable to build a duplex and it's fine because everyone will growing up becausethere's all these big homes in Queens Park, a lot of them are Victorianheritage. And everyone would be like, oh, you live in a duplex? Like, how doyou all fit in there? And I was like, but then they would like come in, they'relike, oh, this is like a full house. Like a lot of people just didn'tunderstand the concept of duplex. And so now it's interesting to me thatthey're becoming more accepted. adopted in different municipalities because andeveryone it's like a crease. I was like, I want a duplex now or a fourplex. AndI was like, it wasn't cool when I was a kid.

LAUREL

Oh, no, now it's got cachet. Now it's like, I got a duplex.And yeah, it's a badge of honor. It's awesome.

JENNIFER-LEE

And they are big, like people don't realize like how bigthey can be. Like they are full houses. They just are more They're together ona property.

LAUREL

They're like friends. Absolutely. And I think we're aninternational city and this is a global concept, really, right? This is, youknow, multi-generational considerations. It allows families to be together. Itallows aging in place. It brings all of these things together and helps withaffordability. It's also fantastic for the environment. I mean, there are somany good news pieces about this change.

MIKE

And I have some good news to share as well. Actually, we'regoing to take a couple of moments break to talk about our wonderful podcastpartners. We're going to come back in a couple of moments because now that weunderstand what the legislation is, we're going to talk a little about some ofthe moving pieces in that legislation, how we can embrace some of theopportunities as well as some of the challenges that might come up as well. So,stick around. We'll be back in a couple of minutes and I'm going to keep thisconversation going.

JENNIFER-LEE

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MIKE

All right. Welcome back. We talked about some of the thingsthe legislation is going to allow us to do. I think it's important to talkabout some of the challenges that we have to overcome. We talked earlier;you've done a bunch of first things. Well, there's a bunch of things we have tofigure out right now and scale in order for this to become something moreconventional and mainstream. So, can you talk to us a little about thedifferences in managing infrastructure in a multi-density development versus saya single-family development? Like what comes to mind for me is like somethingreally, really simple. Like my house has two parking spots in the driveway.Well, if I've got four units, technically I have to have a parking spot forevery unit. So that changes even something as simple as my driveway and there'sthis ratcheting effect. So, can we talk about some of the different movingpieces that have to be figured out for this to become scalable?

LAUREL

Yeah, absolutely. You're exactly right. And I mean, firstand foremost, I mean, it's it's worth noting that right now it's murky. So,there is this provincial regulation out, you know, the province has said to allmunicipalities, you know, get this sorted out. There's a deadline of June 30thfor municipalities to implement something. And different municipalities areahead of others. And so, the answer to sort of that question is a little bit,it depends. It depends what city you're in, it depends what size your lot isin, it depends what utilities you need, et cetera, et cetera. But there's somereal basic gaps in rolling this out from an infrastructural perspective forsure. And, you know, one thing that I can think of, like, when it comes towires and pipes, right? When we're just thinking about electricity and gettingelectricity to all of these homes, you mentioned parking. And when it comes towater supply, all of these things, how are we going to do that when we havepotentially over 130,000 new small-scale multi-unit homes over the next decade?So, there's really this, there's a missing middle. That's a term that peopleare getting more and more used to, but there's also a missing middle when itcomes to how to execute. And it's going to take everybody and a lot of peoplethat are much smarter and more specialized in all these areas than I am interms of gaps in financial support and so forth. But from a basic perspective,if you have more than, what we can do is we can look to a couple of themunicipalities that are Leading the way, in particular, Vancouver, who shouldreally be commended because they have released in the fall of last year, 2023,they've released their consolidated zoning for single family homes, whichallows multiplexes. And we're starting to see how some of this stuff is goingto translate to your point. So, from their perspective, if you have more thanthree dwellings, you've got to consider a PMT, which is a pad mountedtransformer, potentially. But it also is, it depends. And that's where it kindof gets murky because it's all very situational and it's all very dependent onwhat is already set up in terms of pipes and wires and that infrastructure onthat block to begin with.

JENNIFER-LEE

And like you say, you need to make sure you have enoughelectricity because something that comes to mind that a lot of people aren'ttalking about is, yeah, they're like, oh, cars, people have less cars, but.That's not the case. A lot more people, especially in the suburbs, are going toelectric cars. Yes. So, if you have four units and everyone has an electriccar, how are they charging? Are they going to be able to, like, be able towithstand four cars? All that stuff.

LAUREL

Exactly. And every new home built today, it has provisionsfor that, you know, which which is great, which is fantastic. But it doespresent, yeah, many gaps. You know, Small Housing BC and other people areworking on recommendations on the neighborhood level. to consider like costsharing for upgrades that service multiple properties or looking at like what'spossible from private versus public land. But it ties into everything,stormwater management, drainage, power supply, water supply, like all of thesethings have their own sort of set of potential gaps and problems. Andnavigating it, even jurisdiction to jurisdiction could look quite different.And this summer is when we're going to really start to see what municipalitiescome forward with.

MIKE

Question for you, we talked about power as an example. weknow that we're starting to see a better incantation of solar power, althoughit's still not as attainable as we'd like it to be, but we also are seeing newtechnology like smart panels and stuff like that. How long do you think it'sgonna take for some of this new and emerging technology to help level a playingfield? So, some of these things you talked about, like having to put atransformer on a pad, sort of become history lessons. Like how far are we awayfrom that fully formed future?

LAUREL

Fantastic question, because we, exactly to your point. Smartpanels, which help you distribute power to the places that you need them whenyou need them, along with EV vehicles, as you pointed out. All of these thingsare here and present and now. We're also pre-piping every home for future solar,even if you're not deciding to consider solar now. So, I mean, Really, it's abig question mark. I think every single project of ours at the moment has someconversation around solar, has some conversation around efficiency when itcomes to using that. We have one client who wants to overproduce on solarenergy and give back. How do we do that? Because BC Hydro is going to cap it ata certain point. So, there are lots of questions and sorry, I'm coming up withmore questions than answers, aren't I?

JENNIFER-LEE

Oh, this is a great discussion, but this is the truthfuldiscussion and your hands on your husband's builder. You're the designer. It'sreally important to understand this stuff. A lot of times people don't take thetime to sit back and it's like it's great to have all these things to help uswith housing, but we really need to be realistic and see how it all. Yeah. Likewhat are the steps? And we don't know because we haven’t done this before. Andto your point, many municipalities have had so many different rules for solong. Like, I don't think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think inNew Westminster, yes, you're allowed duplexes, but I don't think I've ever seena laneway while growing up, unless they're maybe new in the last five to 10 years,but growing up, definitely no laneways. For you, Mike, you weren't allowedduplexes in White Rock up until now, or you still aren't.

MIKE

Yeah, so I fell in South Surrey. We are not allowed to buildduplexes on less than 10,000 square feet. We have a 7,000 square foot lot. InVancouver, you could put a 25-storey building up on that, essentially. I mean,I'm being a little sarcastic here, but why can't we? Why do we have to have somuch green space when we have an acute housing shortage?

JENNIFER-LEE

Right. So, it's changing all these rules, too, before weget, like, to putting all these places and kind of making everyone.

MIKE

And it's interesting because we're figuring it out as we go.Like you were just talking about, these are the conversations like when we allget together for events and just to talk as professionals, we have theseconversations because we're trying to figure it out as we go.

LAUREL

That's right.

MIKE

There's a lot of unknowns.

LAUREL

And learn from each other.

MIKE

But there are some knowns as well. And I want to focus alittle bit on those. And one of the things I think we need to talk about thatwe haven't talked about yet is this is great legislation because it's going toallow someone like me to be a small part of fixing our housing crisis, but it'snot the same. I'm not going to be building just a bigger version of the house Iwas going to be building to build a duplex. So, there's going to be some costdifferences and there's going to be some infrastructure costs I'm going to haveto absorb versus just tearing my house down and building a new or more energyefficient house. Can you talk a little about those things so we have a goodsense realistically when we move into this process what we can expect? as, uh,as we begin is we don't want to have sticker shock.

LAUREL

Yes, I mean, I hate being the bearer of bad news, butthere's, there's most likely going to be, you know, unknowns and murkiness andmaybe even some sticker shock in that path. Just being forward about it. It'sno different than when laneways were first coming out. And we were trying tonavigate, you know, power in the back of properties and how is this going torun? It gets sort out, but especially for the the first year, the first twoyears, what have you. And until we see some of this, there's going to be a lotof unknowns to figure out. But you talk about knowns, what do we know? Thereare some municipalities that have been signaling the way and have been doinggreat. And there's also cities around the world that have been undertakingthis, Auckland, New Zealand, and other ones that we can learn from. New West,you mentioned New West.

JENNIFER-LEE

for 20 years.

LAUREL

It's like near and dear to my heart. And I have to say, theyare one of the municipalities that is really ahead of this sea change. We havebeen having fantastic success there. We've got a few projects there at themoment. And when it comes to Queen's Park, navigating heritage and all thatkind of stuff. There are people that are in these municipalities that have beensetting up the mechanisms and setting up the standards and the path forward. So,it's all about, it's an iterative process, right? And I think like everybodywants to know what are the knowns, what's the bottom line, what is it going tocost and how long is it going to take me? And a lot of that we just aren'tgoing to know off the bat. So, it's all about partnering with people that youcan navigate that path with, not just at the best of times, but when things arechallenging and when things get unknown, having professionals there to help youguide through that process.

JENNIFER-LEE

Anything big unknown too, it's not just cost and stuff. Forme, I want this to be a positive thing and I've got all that. I'm positiveabout it, but I'm also concerned about doing this. It's like, because we alwayshave people that get around the system and it's like, is this just going toturn out to be like, oh, I know we're going to have legislation in place, butit's like, are people going to start like renting these things out for a lot ofmoney and are we going to be back where we are? And that's my concern, right?Okay.

LAUREL

I love that you brought that up because it's, it goes back alittle bit to sort of the good news of this, which is there are real, there,there are, potentially real ownership opportunities that are coming out of thisthat, you know, the starter homes that are missing and sort of like, you know,taking it. It's really that missing middle again, not just from a ownershipperspective, but from a how to execute and infrastructurally like we there's achance for this to come out of just that speculative large builder side ofthings and have middle builders that are navigating this along the way andhelping real families that are the ones that are building wealth, buildingequity, even if it's with others, even if it's a couple of generations comingtogether to do this. they can take their own lot and turn it into somethingthat is really empowering.

JENNIFER-LEE

Or friends, like literally, that's how our duplex started. So,I told my dad, he's a changemaker, but this is like many years ago. Him and hisfriend couldn't afford a piece of property, so they bought a piece of propertyin New Westminster that they were able to put a duplex on. And that's how theygot into the housing market. Fantastic.

MIKE

Yeah, there's all sorts of creative ways around that. Now, Ido want to go back and talk a little bit more about cost, because I think wehave to sort of draw out what some of those differences are. First of all, Iwas really hoping that what you were going to say was after you build threeunits, the fourth is free. Sounds like that's not the case.

JENNIFER-LEE

No, that's a unit for me, Mike.

LAUREL

It's Jen's unit for free. You're giving us marketing ideas.

MIKE

Tune in next season when we talk about how to market yourproject. I'm looking at a higher cost, and there's a bunch of reasons for that.I have to have fire barriers. I have to make sure that when my neighbor downbelow is cooking cabbage on Sunday, I don't necessarily want to smell it up.

JENNIFER-LEE

I'm not going to be cooking cabbage, just so you know.

MIKE

Yes, you are. You already said you were going to. Sunday iscabbage cooking day. There's sprinklers. There’re all sorts of things in there.So, am I looking at, say, per square foot versus a single-family home? Am Ilooking at two times the cost, four times the cost, 10 times the cost? BecauseI think as we start to quantify it, some of these other pieces will fall intoplace.

LAUREL

That, okay, great bringing it back down to what it reallyis. And although we can't- We have to afford it before we go ahead with it,right?

MIKE

Exactly. All of us are in that same boat. We have to knowour numbers before we make our next move.

LAUREL

And here's the thing, ourselves as a design build firm, thisis no more expensive to build than what we're building right now. So, in termsof per square foot, we're still just simply subject to you know, the real hardcosts of lumber and drywall and the hard costs of construction and whateverinflation is out there. But when we're building these, we're already buildinghomes that convert a single-family home to, say, a single family with secondarysuite, we're lifting it up shifting it over. We're already versed in this, sothe hurdles are not with, say, the expertise on the builder's side or theexpense thereof. When we build this home, the cost per square foot is going tobe no different than what we're doing Previously, in fact, there are thingsthat are going to be sharper. There's economy of scale for sure. So, buildingfour kitchens versus one, well, that's going to be, you know, less per linealfoot of kitchen when you're building four of them, say for instance.

MIKE

But there'll be other things though, like we were talkingabout cisterns, we were talking about like transformer mounted on a pad, right?

LAUREL

Exactly. Those are the unknowns because it depends on whatis the power requirements for your whole block.

JENNIFER-LEE

But does it get alittle bit more expensive because like you said, you're building four kitchens,but then you're putting more appliances in and then you're putting more toiletsin and you're putting more other fixtures in.

LAUREL

For sure. I just mean on a per square foot.

JENNIFER-LEE

No add-ons though. No toilets. That's why Mike has a portapotty outside.

MIKE

Absolutely. Saved a fortune.

LAUREL

Where it's going to be more expensive is in the soft costs. So,in the planning. you want to plan, you want to design, you want to bethoughtful about all of that. And those soft costs are going to be more becausethere's more to think about, there's more to consider, there's the creaturecomforts of all of these people living in close quarters and the question oflivability to your point about the cabbage and so forth. But when it comes tothe construction costs, us putting up you know, walls, oscillation. We'vealready navigated so much of that in terms of, you know, higher performinghomes and that sort of stuff. The cost per square foot to build this, as longas we're, you know, talking about three, four dwellings, what have you, thecost per square foot is not going to change, but the infrastructural side isgoing to change. And then the sheer bottom number in terms of you add that upquantity of appliances and all the rest of it. Yes, that's bigger and that'swhere that gap in financing really needs to close. What I would love to see,and I don't know the answer to this, but I would love to see that homeownerscould qualify on more than just their qualifying income like that more thanjust their qualifying income would be considered that potential renters and orsales and that kind of stuff. So, it's like, again, it's that sort of missingmiddle of like, how do you how do you finance this project? Not just from adeveloper perspective, where it's a pure business case that needs a big bottomROI return on investment. But rather, it's a family that's navigating this andmaybe they've got qualifying income, but they also have a business case oftheir own. And there hopefully are solutions to help navigate that.

JENNIFER-LEE

But also, you need a good designer to like going back toMike's point of cabbage smell, but I would be a good tenant just letting youknow. It's also making sure that you are designing the place so four differentdwellings can be there. So it's really about great design because you want tobe able to position it that you know people aren't hearing the other person'slike toilet go off or like what else is going on in the home or like goingwhere the units go in and that they all have enough space and like that's whyit comes out to you guys

LAUREL

Well said. And it's even a little, it's even more basic thanthat. It's creature comforts. We all need to, just as human beings, we need togather and commune with one another, but we also need to retreat. You may, youknow, whether it's an outdoor room or an escape room or whatever it is.

JENNIFER-LEE

To get rid of his children.

LAUREL

It doesn't matter, you know, who you are. We all need to be able to step away, retreat and restore ourselves as well and rest. And so,you're absolutely right. It's about design. It's about being realistic about things. How can we coexist and still enjoy each other and not, you know, tear each other's heads off.

JENNIFER-LEE

A spa room for your wife.

LAUREL

And there's lots of design tools we can do to sort of think about that. From my perspective, it doesn't have to be expensive or big to be, say, beautiful or functional and friendly to us as human beings. You can have a beautiful path to a beautiful place, and it can betiny and considerate, or it can be you know, a little bit bigger. It's not about size or expense. It's about thoughtfulness. And if you've got thoughtfulsolutions, and if you're taking care of your creature comforts, you're going to love it.

JENNIFER-LEE

Well said. You are hired to design Mike's place. Oh,excellent.

MIKE

Perfect. Well, we're going to have to wrap up shortly andit's a shame because this has been a really good conversation and I have nodoubt that we could probably go on for another two or three hours, but the restof the team here is going to start throwing stuff at me if I go on for toolong. But what you've given us has been a phenomenal overview of the processthat goes in to not only figuring out these particular buildings, but a lot ofthe things that we take for granted now. And so much good information. Youknow, we talked about some of the legislation changes and what that wouldfacilitate. I'm very glad you talked about the shift in how we think aboutdesigning for one of these units versus a regular unit, even the economy ofscale as well. So, a lot of really, really great information here. And wereally, really appreciate you taking the time to break all of this stuff downfor us.

JENNIFER-LEE

Yeah, thank you so much. I know you already gave us a lot ofstuff, but can you give us one more tip before you leave? Just one more pieceof wisdom for the consumer out there, maybe thinking of getting a multiplexdesigned by yourself. What would you like them to think about?

LAUREL

I would say start early. Seek out professionals that are upto date with what's at the latest. And be kind to yourself. Know that it's aniterative process. Know that it's going to take some time. And pick people thatyou want to work with, not just at the best of times, but when things getchallenging. Because it's not about if it's going to get challenging, it'sabout when. And you want people at your side that are going to be professionaland break things down and tell you about your choices along the way.

MIKE

That's great advice and I think that's something anyonelooking at one of these projects really has to take a step back and think aboutas well. Before we get going, there's one more thing we want to talk about veryquickly and that is once you've gone through this process, worked with a greatteam, got your place built, you’re ready to move in. You go, hey man, I'd liketo have some people over, maybe have a barbecue. I don't have a barbecue. Well,we're going to fix that because you've already listened to this episode. Thankyou for your support. Like this episode, tell your family, tell your friends,and you have a chance to win a Napoleon Prestige P500 stainless steel, naturalgas barbecue valued at $1,600. Compliments of our podcast partners at FortisBC.Details are available at www.HAVAN.ca slash measure twice, cut once.

JENNIFER-LEE

And for notes and links to everything mentioned on today'sepisode, including resources shared by Laurel, go to www.HAVAN.ca/measuretwicecutonce. Thank you to Trail Appliances, FortisBC, BC Housing, Rami Films, JpodCreations and AI Technology and Design. It takes a team to build a home and ittakes a team to build a podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and see younext week. Next week, we're going to talk with a BC Housing Sara Goldvine, whowill be chatting about the new secondary suite incentive program. Can't wait.

MIKE

It's going to be a good one.

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